To receive full credit, you must include textual support AND:
1. share your best insight from this chapter (think back to what we did yesterday if you'd like)
2. answer two questions from the phishbowl, connecting your thinking to others' ideas AND the text. You may also address other outer circle members' ideas on the blog.
Happy Blogging!
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76 comments:
In page 98, Gatsby is described as such: “He knew women early, and since they spoiled him he became contemptuous of them, of young virgins because they were ignorant, of others because they were hysterical about things which in his overwhelming self-absorption he took for granted” (Fitzgerald 98). How does his experience with other women affect his relationship with Daisy? Does this make him more inclined to have a stable relationship, or less inclined to? What is the significance of the phrase “they were hysterical about things which in his overwhelming self absorption he took for granted”?
I think that because Gatsby was so used to the attention of women, and yet he still loves Daisy, we see the power of their relationship. Gatsby "became contemptuous of them, of young virgins because they were ignorant..." (98). I think this tells readers a lot about both Gatsby and Daisy and their relationship together. We can understand the feelings that Gatsby has for Daisy, because she is different than all the other "ignorant young virgins." She's not like every other girl, which proves that there is more to her than just the rich party girl. Their relationship is more real than we give them credit for. Daisy is more than a pretty girl and Gatsby is more than a rich man.
On page 109 it says "He wanted nothing less of Daisy than she should go to Tom and say: "I never loved you". What does this say of Gatsby or Nick for thinking this?
On page 109, Fitzgerald writes, "He wanted nothing less of Daisy than that she should go to Tom and say: "I never loved you."' This is important because in Gatsby's mind, It’s not enough for her to leave Tom. He expects Daisy to throw away all past memories and feelings with Tom in order for her to show her complete love to him. However, this isn't healthy. Gatsby is obsessed with Daisy and demands her to feel the same.
My best insight is on page 111 when Gatsby is talking about Daisy "...At his lips' touch she blossomed for him like a flower and the incarnation was complete" (111). I love the simile of how Daisy just opened up for him...just like a flower opens when the sun rises. I think this is a very important quote because it shows that Daisy DOES open herself up and take off her masks and it is fairly easy for her to....with just the slightest interaction with Gatsby she let herself be vulnerable with him even if it was just for a second.
Connecting to the inner circle and previous discussions, I feel that Gatsby has his nervous tick because he is constantly fearing the inevitable of being alone and the past disappearing. He fell in love with the wealthy life long ago and created a whole new person of himself to do so. I think his nervous tick is his worry that that life will come back to him and will blow up in his face.
On page 111, Nick states "I was reminded of something - an elusive rhythm, a fragment of lost words, that I heard somewhere a long time ago. For a moment a phrase tried to take shape my mouth and my lips parted like a dumb man's, as though there was more struggling upon them than a wisp of startled air. But they made no sound, and what I had almost remembered was uncommunicable forever." How is the idea of love transformed in the modern era? And how does this foreshadow chaos?
My best insight was regarding the relationship between Gatsby and Daisy. I don't think Daisy will live up to Gatsby's expectations. Going back to the idea of illusion vs reality, I think things will never really be the same. No matter how much they try, recreating the past is just an illusion. It is kind of like Gatsby is using Daisy as decoration for himself. He has the money, he has the fame, now he just needs the girl. If they want to truly fall in love again, they have to move on and make new memories.
My best insight-
"He looked around him wildly, as if the past were lurking here in the shadow of his house, just out of reach of his hand...he wanted to recover something, some idea of himself perhaps..."
(110). Gatsby's ultimate goal is to be his perfect self, hence his name change and his particular personality. He glamorizes his past, because Daisy once perhaps made him feel like his true self. Gatsby is searching for that fleeting feeling. He has everything else he had once wanted (wealth, an important name) and the only thing missing for him is somebody to share it all with. Gatsby is looking for perfection in himself, and he sees Daisy as that perfection.
Why do you think that Tom cares so much as to what Daisy does, when he himself is cheating on Daisy?
"For a while these reveries provided an outlet for his imagination; they were a satisfactory hint of the unreality of reality, a promise that the rock of the world was founded securely on a fairy's wing." (99) This passage concluded the paragraph that begins, "but his heart was a constant, tumultuous riot." referring to Gatsby. I think there's a very important element of impermanence here; the idea that Gatsby does not expect stable, permanent happiness, and ergo does not work towards that ideal. His plans and ideations are all short term; how to get out, how to get money, how to get Daisy to notice him, and then to accept him. Gatsby is very unsettled; he doesn't know what he wants, and he doesn't know how to get it. The idea of "the unreality of reality" is crucially fundamental to Gatsby's being- he almost seems like he doesn't recognize that his actions have real consequences, and that time is for him passing. He appears to be almost living in a fantasy world; his expectations for how his life should go are vastly different from both possibility and how it's going, and that for him has to be incredibly frustrating
In response to Danielle's question, I think that he's trying to form a bond with Nick in order to get closer to Daisy. I agree with Alex, Gatsby DOES want to be friends with Nick, he just doesn't really know how to go about it. But I think the major reason why Gatsby is telling Nick about his past is because Gatsby doesn't really have a place to let out all of his hurt and anger from what has happened to him. I think that he is using Nick as an outlet for those feelings because when you keep everything bottled up inside at some point you are going to explode and I think Gatsby is just trying to let off some steam so to speak.
Thoughts from yesterday, I previously thought that because Tom was seeing Myrtle that he wouldn’t mind Daisy seeing Gatsby but he the fact that he went to go with Daisy to the party to in a way to make sure that she didn’t have any relationship or even contact with Gatsby. "Her glance left me and sought the lighted top of the steps, where "Three o'clock in the Morning," a neat, sad little waltz of that year, was drifting out the open door. After all, in the very casualness of Gatsby's party there were romantic possibilities totally absent from her world" (108). I think that this quote shows that Tom and Daisy don't have a relationship that is worth keeping up, but Tom would like to keep it because of the social status it brings. It shows that Daisy wasn't able to have a good time because of the way that she acts and how upset she is as Tom escorts her around. Showing she is upset and not wanting to be with Tom anymore.
Gatsby wants Daisy to rely on him, and to abandon her present situation to bring back what they had in the past. He has huge expectations of Daisy, and Nick sees that. He sees how unrealistic Gatsby's hopes are, and shows that Gatsby won't ever get what he's looking for.
“At his lips’ touch she blossomed for him like a flower and the incarnation was complete” (Fitzgerald, 111). When I think of incarnation, I think of rebirth, so what do you think is meant when Fitzgerald writes “the incarnation was complete”?
How do you all picture Gatsby in your head? Is it very similar to, or very different than the seemingly eccentric movie version? I Personally see him as much more of a Jeff Bridges or Benedict Cumberbatch kind of character than a Leo 'Caprio. Who would you recast in the movie to better fit the book?
My best insight from this chapter is that the new information we find out about Gatsby completely challenged previous beliefs that I had about him. In the earlier chapters it was pretty clear that Gatsby was lying about his identity, but I never thought that he was lying as much as he actually was. On page 98, Nick tells us the truth about Gatsby, "So he invented just the sort of Jay Gatsby that a seventeen-year-old boy would be likely to invent, and to this conception he was faithful to the end." This is telling us that Gatsby pretty much invented an identity for himself that is almost the opposite of his true identity. I thought Gatsby was lying about some aspects of himself, but definitely not all of them.
The relationship between Gatsby and Nick is interpreted differently from different perspectives. From Nick's perspective, he sees Gatsby as one step ahead of him, like Gatsby knows something he doesn't. From Gatsby's perspective, Nick is an access point to get to Daisy because she seems comfortable around Nick.
Today we think of love as a feeling and like the quote says, "as though there was more struggling upon them than a wisp of startled air" or in other words breathless. But at the same time love is usually thought to be a what can you do for each other not a relationship that is fun to spend time in.
Going back to what Matthew was saying about Gatsby and how he thinks he very high class and "great." "Jay Gatsby had filled out to the substantiality of a man"(101). This quote emphasizes on the point that Gatsby has this dream of what life is supposed to be like to be happy and successful and this want and desire of the "good life" is what blinds him and causes him to confuse and sometimes hurt others.
On page 110, Fitzgerald states,“He knew that when he kissed this girl, and forever wed his unutterable visions to her perishable breath, his mind would never romp again like the mind of God. So he waited, listening for a moment longer to the tuning-fork that had been struck upon a star. Then he kissed her. At his lips’ touch she blossomed for him like a flower and the incarnation was complete.” I think that Gatsby had always viewed his relationship with Daisy as a vow to it's end. By saying "unutterable" and "perishable", Fitzgerald is hinting that Gatsby is devoting himself to their end. He is wedding the horrible idea, that he will never be able to follow his initial dreams, because she is in his life. Gatsby knows that the relationship is is temporary and fragile, but it is worth giving up his aspirations in order to follow Daisy.
Kassie, I think that Tom is just a really insecure person. I think that somewhere deep inside Tom does have some feelings for Daisy, he feels some love for her even if it's buried beneath everything else. I think Tom finds some safety in Daisy and some comfort that he has power over her and when she starts to do things without him and show interest in another man, Tom no longer has as much power over her than he had before.
Tom is in a position of power. He wants to be able to cross all of the boundaries that he wants, but he wishes to control everybody else. This is especially true for Daisy. She is a status symbol for him, and if she strays from the norm his own image will be damaged. In his eyes, Daisy is supposed to be pure and one dimensional.
To answer Daniel's question
When Gatsby was younger, we can assume that he and his family were not very wealthy, considering that his parents where small farmers and that "to young Gatz, resting on the oars and looking up at the railed deck, that yacht was represented all the beauty and glamour in the world". We can see here that this is kind of where Gatsby fell in love with the power and glory of wealth. It is also because of Cody that he wanted to change his name. In a way I think he was jealous of Cody. He ran away from home in order to explore more of himself but instead I feel like he created an entirely different person. He tries to hide who he was before because he was slightly ashamed of it himself.
Throughout this book, parallels can be drawn between Gatsby and Fitzgerald especially in their pursuits for Daisy and Zelda respectively. Both of the men when they first meet their "golden girl" find themselves unworthy and are left once they go off to war for someone richer, more successful, etc. However upon their return Gatsby and Fitzgerald come into money and along with their sucess they begin to re-write their stories to something that creates a more suitable image for themselves. Fitzgerald uses his literature to create the life he desired, merging fictional features of his characters with facts about his own life. Gatsby also shows these traits and creates his own backstory. Both men do this almost to become "worthy" of the girls that they love.
On page 110, Nick describes, "He knew that when he kissed this girl, and forever wed his unutterable visions to her perishable breath, his mind would never romp again like the mind of God...Then he kissed her. At his lips’ touch she blossomed for him like a flower and the incarnation was complete." When Gatsby and Daisy first kiss, Gatsby marries the vision he has for her even though her “breath is perishable” which means she does not last forever unlike his vision of her. When he kisses her, she blossoms and goes through incarnation. To Gatsby, Daisy represents wealth, status, and beauty. These qualities are the things that Gatsby is described to have admired when he saw Dan Cody for the first time. Wealth and glamour is what Gatsby views as necessary to have in order for him to show devotion to his self-created persona and to worship it. Daisy, in a sense to Gatsby, is what he thinks is the tangible form of Gatsby's desires. Gatsby thinks that by obtaining Daisy, he believes he will satisfy Gatsby's desires and needs. However, because Daisy is not stuck in the past unlike Gatsby is, obtaining Daisy will not satisfy himself.
In pages 98-100, we discover a little more about how Gatsby became the man he is. What is significant about who he was before he met Cody? How did these experiences shape the man we see in the previous chapters? Could this be a backstory molded to the character that he desires to be, and not his true past?
-Daniel
From what we've learned, Gatsby was somewhat lost or aimless. He was born into a poor family and made his own life. When he became Jay Gatsby, he became focused and driven. Although there must be a lot of truth in this, I think that he is trying to keep this persona of Gatsby going.
On page 98, Nick narrates, “So he invented just the sort of Jay Gatsby that a seventeen-year-old boy would be likely to invent, and to this conception he was faithful to the end.” As we have discussed in class, we can conclude that Gatsby has set his life up to fulfill a version of himself, to serve himself by completing himself in his seemingly “American-Dreamish” type of way. People still chase an unrealistic life for themselves; whether it be modeled after social media perfection or romanticized fantasies- Is happiness and satisfaction actually achieved by fulfilling one’s personal idea of a perfect reality? Is that why we keep following this pattern, but it just happens so rarely? Does it make people selfish and pretentious, almost what modernism is known for?
I think this is an interesting question because I think the entire book revolves around the idea of dreams vs. reality. From the first chapter we have the image of the green light, representing Gatsby's desire for Daisy. This is a big moment of foreshadowing though, because he's "trembling... [Nick] distinguished nothing except a single green light, minute and far away, that might have been the end of a dock" (21). I think this suggests that Gatsby, no matter how much he wants Daisy, there will always be something keeping them separated. No matter what life he creates, no matter how much money he has, something will keep them apart, but he will still be reaching for her, trembling. This shows that the idea of the American dream, while it seems to be everyone's biggest desire, it is not the source of all happiness.
To tie to this, there's the line on page 105-106 about "..and I could tell, except for the half hour she'd been alone with Gatsby, she wasn't having a good time."
Daisy does feel very closed off from the people around her- I'm not really sure about the exact dynamics of her relationship with Jordan, but we know that there is tension between her and Tom, and we haven't seen her really interact with anyone else. Having Gatsby- whether its because he listens, because he obviously cares about her, or because he reminds her, too, of how much happier she was when she was younger- must be a novel experience, and one she revels in.
I think that this shows Gatsby's low self confidence and need for validation. If Daisy were to say that she never loved Tom, it shows Gatsby that she never stopped thinking about him, that marrying Tom was just another necessity, and she felt like it was her only option. It confirms to Gatsby that Daisy was constantly thinking about him, like he was about her. Since Gatsby is more of a character than a person, this proves to him that the identity that he made in his head, is finally a reality.
This quote further emphasizes the point that Gatsby is not truly in love with Daisy, but enamored with the idea of her as another part of his "great" image. The main character, Nick, sees this as is demonstrated when he thinks "It is invariably saddening to look through new eyes at things upon which you have expended your own powers of adjustment (Fitzgerald 104). Nick implies that Daisy and Gatsby have some amount love for each other, but as they come to meet again, it is clear that Gatsby is far too in love with himself.
Responding to Daniel's question, I think the person he was before meeting Cody has molded the person he became today, but I think that Cody shaped it more. "It was indirectly due to Cody that Gatsby drank so little" (Fitzgerald 100). This is just one example of how Cody shaped Gatsby. He showed him how to live by both good and bad example. Gatsby saw where a drunk life leaded, so he went the other way. On the other hand, Gatsby saw how a rich life was lived, and he worked to get there for himself.
My best insight from this chapter is realizing the tough situation of Gatsby and Daisy's relationship which challenged what I thought before. On page 110, Nick is talking to Gatsby saying he can't repeat the past but Gatsby says, "Can’t repeat the past,” he cried incredulously. “Why of course you can!" (Fitzgerald 110). Nick is telling Gatsby that he can't go back and repeat the past and make everything exactly like it was before. What does this show about Gatsby's character and love for Daisy? I think that because Gatsby wants Daisy so much, it fogs his mind making him think that once he sees her again and talks to her, she will willing divorce Tom. I don't think Gatsby realizes that is a lot to ask of Daisy to say that she never loved Tom.
@R Crow This really shows how Gatsby is in constant denial about his life in the present, because he is stuck in the past. He believes he can recreate the past: "He talked a lot about the past, and I gathered that he wanted to recover something, some idea of himself perhaps, that had gone into loving Daisy. His life had been confused and disordered since then, but if he could return to a certain starting place and go over it all slowly, he could find out what that thing was" (Fitzgerald 110). This connects to our discussion yesterday; Gatsby has a romantic image centered on himself and Daisy is apart of his "ideal life." He wants everything perfect and expects Daisy to conform to his illusions. He is not aware of reality, because he can't accept his past. As for Nick, he is starting to become more perceptive to Gatsby's dreams and vulnerability.
Is happiness and satisfaction actually achieved by fulfilling one’s personal idea of a perfect reality?
I believe that happiness and satisfaction, may be achieved by fulfilling one's personal idea of a perfect reality, but that satisfaction will soon fade. For example we can look at Daisy and Tom's marriage. When they got married, at least one of them did it in order to fulfill their own perfect reality. Except for now, there is an obvious type of dissatisfaction with in their marriage. They both have found another person to keep them happy, but are for some reason unable to pursue the other relationship.
"I suppose he'd had the name ready for a long time, even then. His parents were shiftless and unsuccessful farm people--his imagination had never really accepted them as his parents at all" (pg. 98). In movies and TV shows we see a lot of one character getting addicted to something and completing changing because of it. They forget who they were. This is the case with Gatsby. He is so addicted to the wealthy life that it is as if his old life never existed, like there is no James Gatz. He has such a detailed false story that he has come to believe it as well. His nervous tick is an effect of the false life he is living and imagined. It's his reality constantly with him, but he chooses to ignore it. With that, Gatsby tells himself that he is telling Nick the real story of his life. He believes he is putting his trust in him.
Whenever we discuss Gatsby's past, I'm always brought back to the movie Inception.
In Inception, specific people grouped as architects construct worlds that can be implemented into other people during dreams. These worlds can be so realistic that others have trouble distinguishing between what is illusion and what is reality. It is only with a very unique and personal object that one can differentiate between a dream or the real world (for the main character, it is a top that would eternally spin in a dream but topple in reality).
Gatsby's character creates a direct relation to the dreams present in Inception, as James has created this illusion of himself, becoming his new reality, "The truth was that Jay Gatsby...sprang from his Platonic conception of himself...and to this conception he was faithful to the end" (98). Gatsby is so far deep in this illusion that he might not be able to tell this character apart from who he may actually be. It might even be a past that Gatsby himself doesn't remember, or at least one that he is unwilling to accept as truth. Gatsby may no longer be able to be honest to his true self because of this, possibly making vulnerability to himself.
Because he is very egotistical and wants it all, he doesn't like the idea of his women being stolen by anyone.
The circle was talking about how Gatsby's money or at least how he got it, may have affected how he interacts with the characters in the book. I still think that a young man, who just happened to "inherit" $25,000 in one go, and substantially increase that within a few short years by investing in drug stores? He also just happens to have criminal friend who fixed the world series for monetary gain. In my mind he is like another famous criminal who had "the entire worlds most profitable taxi company, and it had just two cars." Escobar. They also mention how he never drinks, but only puts champagne in his hair. That is interesting considering the amount of alcohol (remember this is a federal felony to possess at this time) that he serves at parties, and he makes it abundantly clear that he has booze galore. It seems to me like that "yacht" that the man owned could have been a floating distillery. And the Circumstances of Cody's death is fishy as well. He just dies out of the blue. Sounds more like Gatsby wanted less partners to share the cash to me.
Megan, earlier on that page Fitzgerald writes, "His mind would never romp again like the mind of God. So he waited, listening for a moment longer to the tuning fork that had been struck upon a star" (111). I think he means that HIS incarnation was complete. His mind would no longer roam and dwell on things that aren't important, he instead has set his mind on pursuing Daisy and that's all that matters to him. He finally has found his "purpose" so to speak in his life and that is to be with Daisy. I think this is the time where Gatsby realizes that he is born again, kind of like how when someone accepts Jesus is reborn again. They realize their new purpose in life and are "cleansed" of their past/sins.
"He talked a lot about the past, and I gathered that he wanted to recover something, some idea of himself perhaps, that had gone into loving Daisy.” (pg. 110). What exactly is he looking for that is in Daisy? Why do you think he is so focused on his past life with Daisy and refuses to be in the present time?
That is also my greatest insight.
I think this is very important. Gatsby is very image-driven; he's more interested in fitting into this mold of "just the sort of Jay Gatsby that a seventeen-year-old would be likely to invent." Gatsby's not really interested in a lifetime commitment, a family, or stability-- rather, he's interested in becoming everything he once thought he couldn't. Daisy has always been desirable- pursued by everyone, beautiful, young, well mannered, and I think there's almost a component here of Gatsby needing to be the one to get the girl. He can't accept that Tom, born into his money and innately comfortable in the world of the wealthy, has something that he can't-- that at one point, Tom was inherently better than he was. This is important too in the idea that 'he wanted nothing more from her than to say she had never loved Tom,' (paraphrased,) because I think he struggles to accept that even Daisy, who he had put so much of his faith in, had seen him as Gatsby and still chosen someone else.
Also in Inception, when you die in a dream, you automatically wake up in reality. Maybe if/when Gatsby's character "dies," the "real" Gatsby will awaken.
I think that Tom is justified in being upset about Daisy's affair with Gatsby. As we've discussed in class, Myrtle is characterized in a very particular way. As readers, we never see descriptions of her face, only her body. She is built as a character purely for sex, and we can infer that this is her sole purpose to Tom. Daisy and Gatsby are not shown to be physical in the same way, and yet their relationship is far more intimate. This parallels Fitzgerald and wife's own affairs in which he had made it clear he was still very much in love with his wife during the duration of his, and felt saddened at her not only physical but emotional betrayal. While Tom is not a kind man or a likable character, I think that in this situation, he is justifiably upset.
In response to Daniel's question: In pages 98-100, we discover a little more about how Gatsby became the man he is. What is significant about who he was before he met Cody? How did these experiences shape the man we see in the previous chapters? Could this be a backstory molded to the character that he desires to be, and not his true past?
I think it is very significant that Gatsby was a rather poor kid in a poor family before he met Dan Cody. Coming from this background he had never seen true wealth, so when he first experienced it, he fell in love with it. On page 100, Nick tells us: "To the young Gatz, resting on his oars and looking up at the railed deck, the yacht represented all the beauty and glamour in the world." It is important that Nick says "all," because it emphasizes just how important wealth is to Gatsby. These experiences truly shaped the man he would become later in his life, because he devoted his whole life to wealth and success after meeting Cody.
Responding to the 4th question down, I think that it is not Daisy that changed but Gatsby. Five years ago Gatsby's only need was Daisy, during the time they were apart his focus shifted towards money and wealth, trying to achieve the perfect picture. Everyone would like to think that there can be a magical get together but in reality that is hard to achieve especially if both have changed so much. Besides we do not know why they fell apart to begin with
"His parents were shiftless and unsuccessful farm people - his imagination had never really accepted them as his parents at all,"(Fitzgerald 98). To answer Daniel's second question, the man Gatsby was before Dan Cody was a bored, unhappy kid who was looking for more. Once he met Cody, his mind was fixed on getting rich and forgetting who he was. He inherited a new name, moved to a new place, changed everything he once new into something different. He wanted to be a different person because of the person he was before, and was laser-focused on achieving that. I think that he constantly reminds himself of the man he was before, and tries to stray away from that, when really his focus continues to be on the past.
Has the world, or society, recovered from the chaos of modernism? Has the chaos gotten worse?
The chaos of modernism has continued to get worse and worse throughout time. As technology get more advanced people are able to portray the people they want to be to their peers. Throughout the book we see people wanting to be able to do that, showing their social status by going to huge parties and living a luxurious life style, which causes chaos through those who would like to achieve this idea of "the perfect life" which now and continuing towards the future is becoming more and more important to younger generations .
That is an interesting thought, but I think that when he lost Daisy, he thought he could get her back by getting more wealth and living the life. That's why he got a mansion across the bay from Daisy, so she could see him and want him again. I don't know what happened to them, but it is obvious something happened that involved Daisy leaving Gatsby and Gatsby always wanting her back. I think all of his motives tie back to wanting Daisy or whatever she represents
Replying to Megan's question in the Phishbowl: She asks "Daisy seems to not fit in with Gatsby’s type of wealth, while she and him are both wealthy, they seem to be a different type of wealthy, with different lifestyles. What makes them different?"
On page 109, "Daisy began to sing with the music in a husky, rhythmic whisper, bring out a meaning in each word...What was it up there in the song that seemed to be calling her back inside?" The whole night, Daisy could not understand the new life of new money. I think that Daisy may not be as connected to the lifestyle of the 1920's as Gatsby is. The only part of the night she connected to, was somber and sad. Daisy represents the "Lost Generation" in a new light, where unlike others, she can see the reality. Even though Daisy comes out as self absorbed, she may be like Nick. She can bypass the illusion, which in the end might break Gatsby's heart. She connects to the somber events which may show that she has always seen her life and marriage for what it really was, unlike everyone else who lives in a dream.
Reflecting on the quote on page 110, ""He knew that when he kissed this girl, and forever wed his unutterable visions to her perishable breath... his mind would never romp again like the mind of God." God's mind is fully free, and is a place where anything and everything can happen. So to say his mind will never romp again is like saying he is losing this energetic imagination and entering a concrete world where one specific thing will happen after another.
My best insight- "At his lips' touch she blossomed for him like a flower and the incarnation was complete" (111).
I think this was an important line in the book because Daisy is named after a flower, and she "blossomed for him." Throughout the entire book flowers have been a motif. Now we see that before returning to Gatsby, Daisy was closed off and deprived of many of the things she needed. After their relationship was rekindled, especially in the end of this chapter, she blossoms.
My best insight from the chapter was on page 104, Nick says " Or perhaps I had merely grown used to it, grown to accept West Egg as a world complete in itself, with its own standards and its own great figures." I think that this is a very important moment for Nick. In a way, I think that this is his downfall. He has accepted that this is the world that he is supposed to live in and that everything in it is true because it is in West Egg. Instead of being a narrator of no bias and no judgment, he has stayed this way, but in a different form. He has now become gullible to the world he now is a part of. He now does not judge things around him because he takes them as truth, not because he wants to keep things accurate. He wants to fit into those standards he has accepted as his own.
In response to one of Phoenix's question, I think that Jay Gatsby and James Gatz are not the same person, but both struggle with the same insecurities. "But his heart was in a constant, turbulent riot......an infinite number of women tried to separate him from his money" (98-99). I think that Fitzgerald uses James Gatz as a character that represents him because it seems to me that when Fitzgerald is describing this James Gatz he's bringing in his own life story and incorporating the personality traits that he has. I think that Fitzgerald uses Jay Gatsby as a person that he aspires to be. We can see they are complete opposites--Fitzgerald was a heavy drinker, Gatsby refuses to drink because of what has happened in his past. I think that James and Jay are complete opposites, one representing who Fitzgerald is and the other representing who Fitzgerald wants to be.
On page 98, Nick narrates, “So he invented just the sort of Jay Gatsby that a seventeen-year-old boy would be likely to invent, and to this conception he was faithful to the end.” As we have discussed in class, we can conclude that Gatsby has set his life up to fulfill a version of himself, to serve himself by completing himself in his seemingly “American-Dreamish” type of way. People still chase an unrealistic life for themselves; whether it be modeled after social media perfection or romanticized fantasies- Is happiness and satisfaction actually achieved by fulfilling one’s personal idea of a perfect reality? Is that why we keep following this pattern, but it just happens so rarely? Does it make people selfish and pretentious, almost what modernism is known for? -Megan
Jay Gatsby does connect to people today who seek to portray themselves in only their best/ most fun moments to acheive something whether it be social acceptance/status or something else. "I keep it always full of interesting people, night and day. People who do interesting things. Celebrated people." Jay Gatsby uses his parties and lifestyle to appear as this happy and interesting person however once Daisy and Gatsby come together, readers can see how lonely and barren he is as a character without her.
As they just said in the circle, "the old Gatz can't come to the phone right now. Why? He's dead." This separation is an important character trait of Gatsby's. It represents how he cannot escape something in his past-he may not have alluded exactly to what he did or he may have. Sometimes I think we may have a tendency to read too deep into some of these books. And in this case, I really think it isn't a metaphor for anything, just because of how simply it is presented and worded. I think that he literally just tried to shake off his past, because that is what some folks just do. They leave it all behind to pursue something, adventure, love, money, fame, glory. People can do that for any reason or no reason at all. I think Gatsby doing that was because he was an 18 year old or so man who had a wish to be something else. I think part of us can all relate to that simple desire, to be a better version of yourself.
My best insight from Chapter 6 is that even though we kind of think Gatsby is just using Daisy, or Daisy is just another, or the last piece of puzzle he needs to life and have the full luxurious life, Daisy is definitely important to him and he does have intense and passionate feelings for her. “His heart beat faster and faster as Daisy’s white face came up to his own. He knew that when he kissed the girl, and forever wed his unutterable visions to her perishable breath, his mind would never romp again like the mind of Go”(110). He’s nervous around her and cares about what she thinks of him. It’s not just for the glamour of her or her name or the name and reputation she gives him.
In response to Daniel's question:
Gatsby has spent his life creating himself, and becoming a different person. When he first was with Daisy, he felt purity and devotion. Once Gatsby grew in success, he didn't feel the same true satisfaction that he had from being in love with Daisy. He realizes that the things he's worked towards weren't as valuable as what he had felt. This goes back to the quote on page 110 that says "..as if the past were lurking here in the shadows of his house, just out of reach of his hand."
It seems as if both Gatsby and Daisy want to be with each other but for different reasons. Daisy fell in love with the man he was five years ago and although Gatsby is trying to recover that it is hard.
By fulfilling one's personal idea of a perfect reality, I do not think it is possible to achieve happiness and satisfaction in the case of Gatsby. On page 107 it says, "He was silent, and I guessed at his unutterable depression. He wanted nothing less of Daisy than that she should go to Tom and say: 'I never loved you.'...'And she doesn't understand'...He broke off and began to walk up and down a desolate path of fruit rinds and discarded favors and crushed flowers." Gatsby becomes depressed when he realizes that despite all they things he has done so far, Daisy is still not going to deny her love for Tom. When it occurs to Gatsby that Daisy has changed, it saddens him because he is not able to live his ideal reality. The path of fruit rinds and crushed flowers represents how as time goes on, the flowers (beauty) and sweetness that came from his past romance with Daisy dies and does not last forever. No matter how hard he tries to go back to that reality, he will always be disappointed because he is striving to go back to a time where happiness was temporary.
@LexiL2020 I love these questions! I think they're very interesting :). Happiness and satisfaction is not achieved by fulfilling one's personal idea of a perfect reality, because attaining a "perfect dream" is impossible. As soon as a person achieves something, then he constantly wants more. We see this in Gatsby when he chases after his dream with Daisy: "Then he kissed her. At his lips' touch she blossomed for him like a flower and the incarnation was complete" (Fitzgerald 111). Gatsby believes that by reliving the past, he can attain his true dream with Daisy, but it is impossible to relive and perfect the past. Even if we know this in the back of our mind, humans follow this pattern, because society teaches us to work hard to attain our goals. It is almost impossible to erase the possibilities of perfection when we think "Oh, if I just do x, then I can get y." It is also human nature. This type of obsession can make people selfish, because the dream centered around oneself becomes all encompassing and blocks out what is happening in reality. People feel glorious and entitled, but are truly insecure and bitter.
In response to Danielle's question, I do think that Gatsby actually wants to be friends with Nick. I also think that he sought after Nick because of Daisy but Gatsby truly seeks friendship with Nick. Gatsby is opening up to Nick about his past because I don't think that he has had a true friend like Nick that doesn't just want to go to his parties. I think he feels that he can trust in Nick and let all of his feelings out.
Referring to Natalie's comment about Daisy's blossoming in the Phishbowl, how she is a flower: On page 109 Fitzgerald states, "He broke off and began to walk up and down a desolate path of fruit rinds and discarded favors and crushed flowers." Daisy became a character associated with flowers when Gatsby kissed her. She represents new growth and spring. Now that summer is on its way to the end, and flowers are dying, he walks over the flowers that may have been set out because of her presence. This symbolizes the death of their relationship. His illusion is being crushed with every knew piece of information. I think this is where Gatsby turns back to who he once was. When he kissed her he listened to the "turning-fork that had been struck upon a star". I think that his life is turning back to the moment he knew that he would "never romp again like the mind of God". With the crushed flowers comes his reality.
To answer Megan's question regarding the relationship between Nick and Gatsby:
After discovering Gatsby's intentions to re-unite with Daisy I am forced to call into question the validity of the relationship between Gatsby and Nick. While Tom is directly characterized as someone who moves around people like peices in a game, Gatsby acts very similar and seems to use Nick just as a sort of bridge to connect him to Daisy. Why else would the wealthy Jay Gatsby take such interest in such an insignificant bonds man? "'He wants to know," continued Jordan, "If you'll invite Daisy to your house some afternoon and then let him come over.'" Nick is clearly a pawn in a chess game played between Tom and Gatsby in which the objective is not to win but to acquire Daisy's love.
One thing that I have been struggling with a bit, and Daniel just reminded me of this. Is how we describe the 20s as a "collapse of morality." I don't really buy it. It could be a collapse of morality if you consider breaking the major religious bonds that held society in a rigid and tense state to allow things like better choices for women and parents in how they raise their kids and how women can work and eventually vote and especially how they are treated. From the point of view of a conservative religious person in the time period, it may well seem like it is a collapse of morality, but if you ever meet any of those folks now days that grew up during the 20s, they are statistically more likely to be what many people today consider morally rigid and conservative/religious. So to me it seems more of an evolution of morals than a destruction. The other problem I have, is that if the 1920s are defined as a "moral disintegration," what will our era be defined as?
Ansering Daniel's question: After the end of the party, Gatsby talks about what he wishes his future with Daisy to be: “‘Can’t you repeat the past?’ He cried incredulously. ‘Why of course you can!’” (Fitzgerald 110). Do you agree with Gatsby, that he can suddenly recreate the relationship he used to have with Daisy, or do you believe that he will discover that she has changed too much in the last 5 years? Are relationships ever truly recoverable?
I don't agree with Gatsby because the interactions between him and Daisy in chapter 5 clearly show that their relationship isn't the same as it was in the past. Both of them have really changed over the time they were away from each other, so I don't think it will ever be the same as it was. However, I do think that some relationships can be recoverable depending on the situation because not all people change. This connects to what Anna was saying about how both Daisy and Gatsby want their relationship to be the same as it was, but it is very unlikely because they've both changed so much.
n pages 98-100, we discover a little more about how Gatsby became the man he is. What is significant about who he was before he met Cody? How did these experiences shape the man we see in the previous chapters? Could this be a backstory molded to the character that he desires to be, and not his true past?
I think Gatsby wants to forget his past because he's ashamed that he doesn't have a trust fund or grew up in a giant house. He's ashamed that he isn't true wealthy blood. Desires to change his future and forget his past, but he forgets or tries to be ignorantly bliss by the fact that he cant forget his past or run away from it because it is his future and it shaped his whole future.
And even then, you could argue that is always only a very small section of society (less than round 30% or so) that make these moral "evolutions", and it takes a while for them to become status quo. The last thing I have to ask, is: are they ultimately good?
In response to one of Daniel's questions, I don't think that you can recreate the past. There will always be something that hinders our ability to make it perfect again no matter how hard we try. In chapter 6 Gatsby is reminiscing about his past with Daisy, "'I feel far away from her,' he said. 'It's hard to make her understand'"(109). It's clear that Gatsby is nostalgic about his relationship with Daisy but I think that he misses her so much and is so obsessed with her that he thinks everything can go back to how it used to be. But the truth of the matter is that Daisy, I think, has moved on. Daisy has another life, she's living in riches, she has Tom (although that's not the best thing she could have) and Daisy seems like the kind of person where she doesn't take change as easily as some other people. I get the feeling that Gatsby wants to flip the switch and have everything go his way but that's not how life works. I think that Gatsby will soon realize that not only has Daisy changed, but he has changed as well. And I think that Gatsby will be disappointed because Daisy is not the same person she was 5 years ago. She's not as innocent (even though she acts purposefully innocent for Tom's relationship with Myrtle), she's VERY broken, and she just wears masks constantly as a way to get through her troubles. Gatsby will very soon acknowledge that the past is in the past for a reason and if he wants to create something in the future with Daisy, it's going to be different because both of them have changed immensely. Relationships are never truly recoverable, there will always be that one hiccup in a relationship that takes away from having what you used to have. Relationships when they first start out are like a new piece of tinfoil. It's smooth, there are no wrinkles, it looks absolutely perfect. And then there's a little kerfuffle, and a wrinkle shows up. The people in that relationship can never truly forget about that little mistake because it either hurt them or hurt the relationship. There's something that is programmed in the human race that makes us remember every little thing that hurts us, and we hold those grudges against other people which is why a relationship will never be the same after a mistake is made.
All the people in this wealthy world are reliant on money and hollow when it comes to anything else. They can call each other friends however most are not even invited to his party, they just come to be "popular" in a way
I think that Gatsby is so focused on his past life with Daisy and refuses to be in the present time because of the time in which he created the idea of Gatsby. On page 98 it says, "So he invented just the sort of Jay Gatsby that a seventeen-year old boy would be likely to event, and to this conception he was faithful to the end." Gatz created Gatsby when he was teenager and made it clear that he would be faithful to the Gatsby he created. The Gatsby Gatz made had no intention of growing or maturing as a person. That is why Gatsby is portrayed as immature because in order for Gatz to remain loyal to Gatsby, Gatsby must not change. The romance he had with Daisy five years ago occurred when he was young. Because he has not in a sense "grown up" yet, Gatsby wants to stay in the past where he makes the idea of Gatsby happy. With Daisy, Gatsby is looking for the memory of her that will allow him to return to his temporary happiness and youth.
Best Insight: Gatsby builds one persona for himself out of one moment of his life with Dan Cody. However, Gatsby becomes infatuated with himself and his idea of a perfect life. Any sort of conflict interferes with his image and threatens to tear it down. He is the center of his own universe, and Gatsby unknowingly sacrifices his morals and true character for wealth and a grand facade. This connects to Steinbeck's novel, The Winter Of Our Discontent when the main character leaves his morals behind and character behind to get rich. At first, he wants to support his family but too much money transformed him into a selfish and greedy person.
They worship booze and wealth-to answer Mrs. Ackerman.
I do believe that Nick is being used by Gatsby. He lies to get Nick on his side just so he can see and be with daisy. It is not considered friendship. He is blind to himself. Gatsby could be trying to protect himself. Why does he only ell half the truth. If he doesn't want to be friends then why. maybe he wants to use him as an escape? from reality. Maybe trying to see what part Nick appreciates the most. 98-100. how gatsby became the man he is today.
I don't think that he was never poor but I think that its hard for him to admit. (past connects to future) his past and hopes become his future.
do you think its possible that the seasons (fall) is unique. weather represents feelings. spring- love and new hope for daisy. rain- bad mood, fearful, sad. fall- where everything starts to die.
how do you think that Gatsby's past will come back to haunt him. and eventually cause him/ this story to collapse. like the boulder structures.
I find it interesting how Fitzgerald involves such mythical, silly, and precise facts to make something so simple on the surface.
James Gatz - that was really, or at least legally, his name.” pg 98
Is Jay Gatsby and James Gatz the same person?
How are they alike or unalike?
They are the same person in real life, but figuratively Jay Gatsby is the person he wants to be in his future/for the rest of his life. It reminds me of the Puritans and how attached they are to their names and how important they are and define.
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